so I've been listening to y'all bitch and moan about XR and Earth Strike and quite frankly, I agree with you. So I've been drafting up a proposal for a loose network of activists (united by shared principles rather than with any official structure, think antifa) to work alongside such groups to try and make sure the climate movement isn't dissolved or crushed, and I've posted it as a page in the wiki. Please give it a read and share it if you like it, trynna get other propaganda stuff based around its principles on the go too

wiki.sunbeam.city/doku.php?id=

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:greensun: Climate collapse is class war

:greensun: Capitalism and centralisation have devastated our planet

:greensun: Direct Action and Autonomy - not looking to elected representatives for reform

:greensun: Climate issues are social issues

:greensun: Consensus is key - All Power to the People!

:greensun: Anti-Fascism

:greensun: Rejection of the state and police

:greensun: The climate struggle is an internationalist struggle

@scottishwobbly consensus is bad actually, it means one person can block everyone else

@radikalgrafitio consensus isn't the same thing as unanimity, one person can try all they like to block shit, if the overwhelming majority of the group disagree then they wouldn't be able to block anything. I didn't say direct democracy because it's not feasible to function that way in a group without formal structure

@scottishwobbly well, consensus is an actual formal discussion making procedure though, which includes blocks, which people do use
maybe you meant something different, but in the context this seemed most likely

also, if you have a group without a formal structure it still has an informal structure, so it tends to be result in the most popular, more confidant, longer term members having disproportionate influence, with structures this can be managed to some degree

you also call this a federation, but a federation a a set of groups which federate together and make some decisions collectivity
what your describing is a network, which is fine, both federations and networks have there uses, and federations can probably form out of networks, but they are different things

@radikalgrafitio a federation of worker co-ops and community assemblies is what the proposal aims towards, but it's more a loose network yeah, also honestly this is what I meant by consensus, nothing complicated

@scottishwobbly @radikalgrafitio
You'll probably find, esp. in the context of NVDA / climate focused groups that when you say "consensus" people will already have an expectation of a specific process, probably very similar to this:
seedsforchange.org.uk/resource
If that's not what you mean, avoiding the word will avoid confusion.

@radikalgrafitio @scottishwobbly Then how about consent, the way it's defined in sociocracy: everyone doesn't have to agree (as in consensus), but if anyone doesn't have a *reasoned* objection, things can move on.

(And then there are different thought-out methods to work out those reasoned objections so that they don't stop doing things.)

@Stoori @scottishwobbly well how do you define reasoned, people tend to think there ideas a reasoned regardless, and will often spend hours why they are right, actually meetings going on so long nothing gets decided is another common problem, especially when dealing with people who dont have any serious commitments and without a experienced facilitator

you also get the issue where people agree the group should do something but none of them actully make an effort to do it, or it get left the same people again and again, so people end up burning out (and also this exacerbates informal hierarchy)

i think a focusses on what people are willing to agree to do themselves can help with this, i'm not sure if this is what you mean with consent, but i've not heard of sociocrecy

@radikalgrafitio @scottishwobbly Sure, these are all common issues, and there are methods to work them out.

”Reasoned objection” answers to the question: ”If we make the decision, how does it stop us from doing what our purpose is?” After that has been answered, we ask: ”How could we modify the proposition so that this hindrance ceases to exist?” And so on.

The point is, there are other options than consensus and majority decisions, which are both problematic in their own ways.

@Stoori @radikalgrafitio I'm talking about functioning in small groups like affinity groups by general agreement, I really don't understand what is so problematic about that or how else you could propose an organisation whilst still allowing its membership to decide the direction it takes

@scottishwobbly How about instead of/in addition to consensus using the principle of dictatorship of the initiative?

@restioson how about just general agreement so that groups can decide which method is best for them locally?

@scottishwobbly well obviously each situation will require its own decision making process. Dictatorship of the initiative is perhaps a useful tool though, for some teams and organisational structures/level if not all. For instance, the group in the UK would have externally dictatorship of the initiative -- it wouldnt have to seek consensus from the USA group unless it affected the USA group as well (in which case they would be involved and be involved in decision making).

@scottishwobbly Climate collapse is more than a class war, it's white supremacy, eugenics, dehumanization. Capitalism etc is awful, but really just a continuation of white supremacy/magicly ordained white blood shit. @ash posted very relevant toots in fact.

Honestly whites have such hubris to think they can fix this and center their voices always when they're literally the ones who caused and continue to cause it.

Also, little thing I've been thinking about, the importance of compassion for other humans above all else.

@bumblebees @ash maybe if you'd read the full proposal you'd see that protecting minority groups from the police (something XR has majorly failed at) is a priority along with building links and listening to people from every disenfranchised group

@bumblebees @ash white supremacy and eugenics are all a part of the class war, like white supremacy is literally a way of trying to stop the white working class realise they have more in common with every other exploited group than those with capital

@scottishwobbly I was relpying to the, I forget what you specifacly called them, but the sorta guiding principals you posted. Quite honestly, it's a big red flag to me when any such project/whatever does not hugely massively explictly note colonialism/white supremacy and also ableism.

I can kinda see equating racism to class war, sorta, kinda, but also it's totally not. I'd argue if there's any overarching ism, it's ableism, and all other ism break up under that. Regardless of this reductionism and semantics, it's really not ok to tell an indigenous PoC "no, no, you're wrong, it's this other thing" and going ahead and ignoring 500 years of genorcide

Not a fan of phrasing "protecting minority groups" but that's further semantics perhaps and again, who are you centering.

@scottishwobbly I just don't center whites or their feelings, that's not the point of view I come from. GDP growth capitalism is younger than colonialism, and wouldn't be able to exist if not for the blood of me and other native/people of color.

If you care to, I highly recommend reading the IWW's constitution

@bumblebees these are things i'm aware of but not nearly learned about in depth enough yet to outline as a white cis man, my outline is just my own one, it's built around what I know, i've said before it that it's not to be taken as a manifesto, and I would be extremely keen to support any outlines proposed by POC and indigenous people towards it, I just drafted that up as my own contribution to try get some creative discussion going rather than just bitching about XR

@bumblebees I wouldn't equate racism to class war, i can add that climate collapse will be racist and imperialist if you like?

@bumblebees okay so i completely misunderstood you, I thought you were saying "no no, it's not class war, it's this other thing" when in fact it's all of these interconnected, and having dealt with incessant right wing spam over the last few weeks on tumblr, and seeing that you don't follow many people or have many posts, i assumed there was something off, I'm sorry for being a dumbass, pls feel free to edit this outline so as to be more inclusive, @puffinus_puffinus can sort you out with a wiki account

@bumblebees
Hi! I'm happy to create a wiki account for you if you want to contribute.

@scottishwobbly

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