What's a word like "heteronormative" but for outdated binary gender roles instead of heterosexuality?

Ok, that was a vague question. The attitude I'm trying to describe isn't when someone is overtly sexist (at least intentionally) or denying trans or non-binary identities. I mean those people who talk about men and women as if they're like, different species or something.

Examples of attitudes I mean:

• talk about relationships being "girl stuff"
• men needing to construct a "man cave" in their house
• shops having a "man crèche" for dudes to go while women buy clothes
• "alpha" bullshit

I just think people should be treated like people, irrespective of gender, sexuality, or absence thereof.

Doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, cis, trans, or any other flavour of queer. Anyone can support outdated binary gender nonsense unintentionally. Everyone should be allowed to live their lives without being constrained by outdated gender roles or societal expectations.

Including cishet people. Perhaps especially cishet people. Maybe then they'd realise what a big deal this stuff isn't

@becky Doesn't really fit. Cis people can still challenge gender roles or refuse to conform to them. I don't mean people who erase trans identities, I mean people like Aunt Tracy who still has a copy of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" on her coffee table.

@InvaderXan hmm not sure then. I think aunt tracy might just have a touch of the old internalised misogyny?

@InvaderXan @becky reminds me of another term i've used: "venus/mars bullshit"

gross implications 

@interneteh Ugggggh yeah, a lot of straight nonsense is super creepy. Though some of it overflows into queer communities too. The way masc folks like to use the word "daddy" will never fail to creep me out.

gross implications 

@interneteh @InvaderXan
Whoa whoa whoa
Let’s not drag Mommies into this straight nonsense.

@InvaderXan gender-essentialist, I think is what you’re describing?

@Ethancdavenport I thought that was about TERFs and their weird "biological" nonsense? Or am I mistaken about the meaning...?

@InvaderXan I mean bio-essentialism is still very much a thing, but what your describing seems much more social-construct-y. That’s how I’d describe it, but I’m just a cis/het guy who reads lots of posts from people who aren’t lol.

@Ethancdavenport Oh, I'm taking opinions from anyone here. Including cishet guys who want to learn more.

@InvaderXan well, that’s how I’d label what you’re describing! Gonna keep an eye on this thread to see what else pops up.

@InvaderXan @Ethancdavenport the rf in terf is for radical feminist, who was a very awesome group in the 90s who freed us from the prevalent bio-feminism that were pretty much the norm back then.
The idea still exists. The people who now get called terfs seem to have adopted the idea a lot. But there still exists actual terfs, who oppose the bio ideas.

@panina @Ethancdavenport Yeah, I realise that TERF is an ironic term given that they're deeply anti-feminist when you look at their opinions in closer detail.. But the important part is the TE (trans exclusionary). That is why they aren't welcome in my spaces.

@InvaderXan @Ethancdavenport yeah, sorry, I have a crusadey thing about tirf's or something. My big sis is an old radfem, and I hate that the trans-haters have made everyone forget that the radfems were awesome...

@baerd That's just about cis men. Cis women can be just as bad with the "you'd be bored, we're going to look at shoes" stuff.

@InvaderXan oh yes
In social psychology authors speak of "old fashioned sexism" i think

The second and third are things my dad always complains about. "You took away my room! Now it's only used for storage!"
"I can't go shopping with your mother." (To be fair, some of that is due to his back, but it's mostly just an "I'm bored" type of exasperation)

Just more reasons why I just can't deal with cishet men.

@gender_noncompliant I honestly don't get it. Especially the shopping thing. Who wouldn't want to spend an afternoon telling their girlfriend which clothes she looks prettiest in, amiright?

@InvaderXan i think i've used "heteronormative" for this sort of thing before, for lack of a better term

kinda tempted to say "hetero-normie" though

@InvaderXan I think those examples usually stem from either conscious or subconscious sexism and insecurity in masculinity. Even if it’s women saying it it’s still the same old “women have lots of feelings and care about how they look and men don’t because uh.. manly and above that”

@becky Yeah. There are a bunch of interrelated concepts here. Sexism, internalised misogyny, toxic masculinity, heteronormativity, and so on...

@InvaderXan I like to say, sometimes, that gender roles are just like Rick Rolls: an outdated and bad joke that people still somehow still play on each other.

@wlonk Considering how hung up some people get over it, that's a pretty good comparison!

@InvaderXan i feel like your responses indicate a very narrow understanding of what cissexism and sexism is. a lot of this stuff is direct results and even central tenets of patriarchy. i mean the original two spheres theory (Rousseau) that established modern American antifeminist rhetoric is very much grounded in this stuff

@cosine Wow, I have clearly never heard of this patriarchy that you speak of and am obviously unfamiliar with the central concept of it. Thank you, random person, please do explain it to me some more. Clearly, my understanding is vastly inferior compared to your extensive knowledge.

@InvaderXan This sounds like "oppositional sexism" to me. Julia Serano wrote about it in /Whipping Girl/.

@InvaderXan I think heteronormativity includes 'traditional gender roles' assumptions and prejudices. You can definitely enforce it without being cis or het, without even thinking of it. It is pervasive. I read something about that recently, I will try to find it!

@InvaderXan ugh i hate this attitude so much it's some real late stage gender binary bullshit

@InvaderXan how do you define sexism? I always thought of these things as defined by sexism, but I'm not sure now

@InvaderXan Heteronormativity still fits, because a lot of hets do see cis queer people as being outside what they consider the gender binary.

@erinbee Yeah, when you put it that way, it still fits. But I don't necessarily mean queer people. I've known cishet people who also think gender roles are bullshit.

Though I guess it depends both on your definition of heteronormativity, and your definition of queer.

@InvaderXan Right, but a cishet person who truly believes those examples you offered will engage in that sort of talk with cishet people who eschew gender roles (and may try to push them to come around to their way of thinking), but they'll more often think/internalize things like "Sure my lesbian neighbour is a woman, but she doesn't understand [all this sexist gender stuff] so she's also outside womanhood."

@InvaderXan (I also agree with @AudreyJune that it's a whole mess of gender essentialism, and that's a more helpful umbrella term that eluded me.)

@erinbee Yes, you're quite right. Heteronormativity reinforces these attitudes very heavily.

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