if i have to read the phrase "justified hierarchies" one more time my body will transform into snakes

@Cyclideon It always frustrates me so much. If you respect someone and frequently follow their advice, that's not a hierarchy, that's just agreeing with someone. If they have no power to make you do something you don't want to and you're free to disagree with them, then how much you respect them makes no difference!

It's *coercive* hierarchies, y'all. "Justified hierarchies" has so much fucking wiggle room, especially when you realize that authoritarians think *every* hierarchy is justified

@socalledunitedstates one of the latest threads on the r/debateanarchism subreddit is basically a couple of ancaps and a bunch of ancoms shaking hands over the idea that hierarchies can be good and the only person that gave any meaningful pushback was a 50+ year-old mutualist (shaun wilbur)

@socalledunitedstates @Cyclideon this is interesting to me because the examples we have seem to suggest that respect is how hierarchies start. Ursula LeGuin did well reflecting this in The Dispossessed imo, although as a general rule fiction should not be used as an argument for anything whatsoever, ever. Of course, there are lots of aspects of anarchism that will be incredibly difficult to maintain and require constant vigilance. This is one of them, I suppose.

@marie_joseph @socalledunitedstates yeah, status hierarchies and informal power dynamics can be just as dangerous if we aren't careful c4ss.org/content/52475

@marie_joseph @socalledunitedstates @Cyclideon I do not like the idea that one must not refer to fiction when it comes to philosophical concepts. After all, a lot of philosophy is written in the form of subjective imaginative fiction or abstract prose. The Dispossessed is a quite interesting exploration of the subject as far as I am concerned.

@qcat @socalledunitedstates @Cyclideon while politics is a philosophical issue, it also a practical issue determining the life or death of everyone. There must be an empirical base for the philosophy, otherwise it is merely fantasy.

In my opinion, which you are under no obligation to agree with XD

I was being a bit hyperbolic in my original toot, but I didn't make that clear

@marie_joseph @socalledunitedstates @Cyclideon Oh, I do not disagree in the least. I merely wanted to add that pure empiricism is an empty shell without the imagination that leads to questions. "What if?" often proceeds "What is?"

reference to air crash 

@socalledunitedstates @Cyclideon On a related note, I feel like the big lesson in Nickolas Means' telling of the story of United Airlines Flight 232 - youtube.com/watch?v=099cHWSbAL - is that /even in situations with a literal captain in charge/, treating that captain as the top of a hierarchy is a mistake that gets people killed.

@socalledunitedstates @Cyclideon

Yes, coercive hierarchy where someone has power over you is very different from following someone's advice

But the ability to get a lot of people to follow your advice IS a form of power, which you can wield against others.

And you can build that power for yourself, by keeping up a myth of your own perfection and hiding the sources of your knowledge, or you can dismantle it by showing your flaws and skill sharing so people don't need your advice.

@socalledunitedstates @Cyclideon

Good anarchists don't pretend that all advice is equal or that experience doesn't matter, but do look for hierarchies building from popularity, the overstating of someone's perfection, and over-reliance on someone's experience and scarce knowledge.
It then addresses those factors and looks at how to distribute that knowledge and experience better.

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