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Lefty economics 

Maybe this is a little weird, but one standard I apply to ideas is does it make money less important? Like giving people housing and guaranteeing they can never lose it makes money less important because you'll always have housing no matter how much money you have. "affordable housing" does not. A UBI does not necessarily.

Lefty economics 

Basically I'd like to shrink the importance of money until it's small enough to be drowned in a bathtub. I'm the reverse Grover Norquist

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Lefty economics 

@interneteh I hadn't considered it that way, but this makes sense
I was reading the other day about how grants here in France to help students afford housing, while helping level the field between students of varying wealth, has actually caused housing costs to go up
UBI gives people a baseline amount of money, but I'm afraid that will simply raise the cost of living, undoing most of the good that it's intended to bring

Lefty economics 

@gaeel my main problem with UBIs is I believe that, under capitalism, it will either be taken away by rich people who resent having to pay for it, used as an excuse to tear apart what few other social benefits exist, or both.

Lefty economics 

@interneteh @gaeel a UBI can ONLY work without capitalism.

Lefty economics 

@ailurocrat @gaeel that's what I think. We can't keep having this owner class that determines what we get

Lefty economics 

@interneteh i agree and think about this a lot. it's basically like disarmament, but for all the ways capital grants leverage, on an incomprehensible scale. and i think some of the dynamics and game theory are similar to disarmament - FOSS is an example of a space that made money matter less within its sphere, but didn't care much that capital still formed the outer walls and so was able to coopt it (eg tech cos using FOSS to profit, but not giving back).

Lefty economics 

@interneteh so basically we should think not only about making money matter less, but in ways that undermine (or lay groundwork to undermine) the leverage of adjacent parties who might try to capitalize on the power vacuum. i do think the bathtub drowning scenario is possible and i want to live to see it but will fight on regardless.

@interneteh it's not weird at all. i want people to survive easily, so i want the living expenses as low as possible. preferably free.

that doesn't mean i want everything to be cheap. if it causes harm to people, animals or the environment, it would like it to be expensive..

a #ubi may not nessecarily cover all basic living expenses (depends on the amount, of course) but i think it's fair to assume that its the first thing people use it for..

@sofia yeah I'm not interested in cheap either. If it's essential, it should be free. And making those things free means money itself becomes less important. That was my only point really

@interneteh but it's a step _towards_ free. wanting living expenses be covered is one thing, getting people to cover them is another. and if it's via money or not doesn't really matter. people have to make food and build/maintain houses. it's more plausible that is gradually becomes cheaper than that everyone just simultaneously decides that it will be free now..

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