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) Today I stumbled upon a very intersting (but also lengthy) blog post discussing currencies (crypto and fiat).
Thought provoking.
I definitely recommend reading it.
If anyone has any opinions on what is being said I'd be interested to hear them.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of the article, but points out a lot of interesting things which might be very relevant now that trump was elected.
@serapath "If you want to compare Bitcoin to something else, compare it to fire, the number zero, the wheel, the printing press, or electricity." Sorry this is just hilarious
@powersource I compare bitcoin to the giant dung heap in Jurassic Park.
Bitcoin ends the capitalist class.
If you call that a "giant dung heap" ...yeah - not sure i can follow.
I agree that this is a rather funny comparison.
The main idea for it - i assume - is that there is no central issuer, it is decentralized and limited in supply. That has never been achieved in history, even if you wanted, nobody could create such a mechanism.
I think it could end capitalism
@serapath none of these statements follow on each other and are not arguments in themselves. You just seem rambling
hm.
you said number zero, fire, etc... meaning some sort of "fundamental thingy".
All rulwrs and opressors throughout history has money printers and called it capitalism or whatever.
i love p2p and permissionless world, open source and no access restrictions.
i dont think it doesnt just end with permissionless sharing data, but pwrmissionlessly live in all its aspect.
no gatekeepers. no intermediaries.
anarchism and community.
no billionaires ruling over us
bitcoins main proposition is to make currency open source with fixed supply of at most 21 million.
making everyone equal. no more money print8ng for VCs and the billionaires
...ans because that is so important to end capitalism, it woupd be a major breakthrough and change the world, just like fire or other fundamental things did.
I think that is the thought behind that statenent.
ot compare it to fire or electricity or number zero... it has to be fundamental and change the world into some sort of before/after that is fundamentally noticable?
bitcoin just has the largest network effect and bigfest decentralization
@powersource because it was first... whipe all the other silicon valley wall street crypto bro scam coins came after and are mostly owned by those VCs anyway.
also, they all come with a printer and not with a fixed supply.
...so that seems to maie bitcoin the only prqctically viable candidate to rally behind if we want to end money printers to end capitalism
@serapath how tf is it equal if people who got bitcoin first have more than those who get it late. That's just a new class society with maybe a different name
@powersource yes it is not perfect.
but in the long run.. no printing. ppl will eventually need to spend those coins.
it is more pragmatic, because it is a "shelling point" that ends money printers and it is more decentralized and more equally distributed than any other crypto or fiat. fiat because the money printer folks have infinite supply anyway... and thats not governments, thats also banks and VCs and their billionaires
but with it, they also buy governments.
only the rich can run for president realistically and whoever governs uses the money printer to sponsor their favourite billionaire amigos.
lets see who trump will sponsor
@powersource @serapath
Capitalism can be happy with bitcoin. All of capital's exploitation of labor and the environment can work fine with bitcoin.
Capitalism could change if bitcoin was the only currency and all other wealth was gone.
@bhaugen @powersource yes, but this is how it looks. that seems to happen.
things go to zero against bitcoin, so we are heading towards that potentially?
also - at the moment.
exploitation is easy. just print money and pay everyone... if you need more, print more.
But once you dont have printers, you might pay everyone to "exploit them" and ...in the process run out of funds 
You might still have folks running an exploitative scheme, but at least way less and you can then actually try to "attack" them and offer alternatives... but you cant as long as they have printers to defend all your attacks forever ...
@bhaugen @powersource ...like in the worst case it means inflation for everyone, but still they win
@serapath @bhaugen @powersource
very deep blind spot for bitcoin maximalists , namely that bitcoin is going to make everyone's lives better.
bitcoin is just a currency technology it is not an equality technology , the only equality technology i know of is a society ..
my experience in crypto world and also bitcoin maxi world , full of people who ultimately just want to be rich and dont care how. the one interesting thing is the hodl cult like mindset does manage to maintain bitcoin's floor?
bitcoin is not an equality tech for equalizing everyones account balance. if you have any idea how to get there great... bring it on.
But, bitcoin the way it is defined, if adoption continues to grow like over the past 15 years, IS an equality tech in terms of money printing privilege.
a world woth billions of people.
the vast majority ...basically the 99% have no money printer access, but the capitalist colonialist/imperialist history class absolutely has.
its not the hodl mindset.
it is the promise of cutting out the privilege of the billionaire class moneyprinters that allow them TO PAY everyone everywhere salaries to work for them and enrich them more regardless of whether they do smart stuff or bullshit? because the money printer never runs out of money to print to pay ppl to do stuff for the capitalist class
@serapath @powersource you cannot end capitalism without ending capital, i.e., private property. Changing the rules of money which have no inherent value changes nothing if the ability to exclude people from using the real assets of the world remains unchanged.
In lieu of that, the ability to conduct monetary policy with fiat money is one of the few tools we could use to loosen the hold that billionaires have over us - if we dared. Part of that would be to change the rules of credit.
@joelving @powersource
i disagree.
houses exist. streets exist.
somebody owns it.
maybe a rich billionaire.
maybe "the city" (e.g. controlled thrn by whoever governs it) ..like a republican major... trump... some rightwinger, maybe some left winger... but some small group of folks controls it.
maybe a small community owns it, and defends it against outsiders.
accountants will write it into books.
the ability to exclude people gets reduced dramatically if we end niney printers.
no more mkney to print to pay exorbitant police and military.
no more money printer to buy up all stuff and inflate other peoples wealth away so they wouldnt be able to have access any ire because they cant pay
WHY2025) @serapath @joelving @powersource The rich do not get rich through printing money. They get rich through exploitation.
@joepie91 @serapath @powersource exactly. I'm not saying you shouldn't rein in money printing by changing the rules of commercial lending. We should for sure. But the ability of government to spend without first getting the money from the rich is a powerful advantage that we shouldn't throw away. #MMT is useful in illuminating this.
And in the long run, without changing rules of ownership, none of it matters.
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource a powerful advantage in the hands of crooked politicians.
it is also a drop in the ocean of money printing through banks and VCs...
they print as well and even more
now it is in the hand of trump.
yes. some little money is shut up money for activists but the millions go for big business to their capitalist friends.
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
rules of ownership should be changed too.
i do think the way to get there is make new organisations who build stuff (products/services/etc...) and outcompete the capitalists.
this shpuld be easy. people are skilled and capitalist companies are full of inefficiencies and corporate bullshit politics...
...the problem is, as soon as there are successful alternative ways of organising... e.g. bwst recent example is the success and growth of nodejs/npm ecosystem
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource .... as soon as there is success, the capitalists, a.k.a crypto shitcoiners move in ans print money to hire people, make competitors, pay for propoaganda, a.k.a ads/marketing, to disrupt the successful movement with huge software supply chains
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
the rich get rich through money printing which is the exploitation.
they hire the poor and give them pieces of paper for their labour.... and they can because they print it
@serapath @joelving @powersource ... no, that is not how it works, and that is not where the power dynamics are. If it were that simple, you could simply decide not to use their money and the problem would be solved. The fact that that hasn't happened should tell you that there's more going on here.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
no i think that IS EXACTLY the case.
stop using their money and problem solved.
the issue is. it is a nash equilibrium society is trapped in. a prisoner dilemma.
everyone would neex to stop.... but the grocery stores, the hair dressers, the bakery, the sports club, the plumber, the doctor, the bus driver... literally everyone needs it every say so they have to earn it.
IT IS HARD to stop using their money
@serapath @joepie91 @powersource that's the metallist version, which is wrong. You cannot stop using it, because you need to pay your taxes in the currency of your sovereign. That's where fiat money derive is value from.
Again, #MMT is incredibly useful here.
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
so far the theory
...but in practice the governments since forever are corrupt. just like the money printing to the billionaires, the small ruling class always keeps loopholes open to escape taxation.
in a divided world you can of course threate countries that dont agree.. but then you create a trade war, maybe a cold or even hot war.
...but with bitcoin... or any other such open source alternative mechanism you can do it peacefully
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
what you say as taxes dont alow you to stop using it also means the corrupt politicians and their billionaire amigos - because lets be honest it is always big and old money who campaigns chooses candidates and creates the government... its never the people or a rqndom citizen...
it always has been like that.
sometimes it is trump. then it was bush... even under obama... in practice not much has changed. the rich and mighty execute their strategy and capitalism
@serapath @joepie91 @powersource you can do what peacefully?
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
if you dont accept the money of the capitalist opressors, ..and have a new mecha ism those capitalists dont control and cant enrich themselves by pressing a button - printing money... they cant pay for the mercenaries, employees, equipment, ...even weapons... to enforce their rules
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
and all it takes is not to fight or demolish anything, but not use their systems and money, but instead an alternative more people empowering mechanism...
@serapath @joelving @powersource And why is it hard?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
Because i can stop, but if everyone else does not stop at the same time to switch to something else... i will still need money to pay rent, pay for groceries, and everything else in life and those peoppe who charge me are in the same situation and need that money to pay for their bills as well
@serapath @joelving @powersource And why are they not stopping? Why have attempts at alternative currencies failed? Why do people not gradually transition?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
they cant stop.
because if you jump from a high place and a crowd coordinated to catch you... you can jump. concerts can create such a place.
but if you jump before people coordinate you fall and hurt yourself.
samw with money. everything around you is priced in e.g. dollar or eur or wherever you are from and if you dont have it because you use a new mechanism and nobody else does... it doesnt work
everyone must switch to it fast enough
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource why have attempts at alternative currencies failed?
because it is hard.
it gets cracked down by capitalists.
or it gets corrupted
or it is made so imprqctical that it doesnt work in practice.
many approaches have been tried i'd say, but it is hard.
...which is why bitcoin is such an interesting phenomenon. doesn have to be bitcoin ... its ooen source it could be something else with similar or whatever rules, but needs to become a schelling point imho
@serapath @joelving @powersource There's a reason I brought up exchanging - if what you say is correct, then it should simply be a matter of exchanging to whichever currency you need for a given transaction. Annoying, sure, but doable. It could even be automated.
So. Why isn't that happening? That's the question I'm asking.
And "it gets cracked down on by capitalists" is getting closer to the answer, but it is not the full answer. *HOW* does it get cracked down on? What is ultimately the thing that gives capitalists the power to crack down on this?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
first of all, yes we can switch currencies, but which? every time i switch to one, i again give power to different capitalists.
and the power is given to capitalists by having a money printer for the currency we use to receive "slave wages". it allows them to print their VC startup investment programs out of nothing... hire everyone, buy everyones labour to do what they want.
governments and their crook politicians on all sides do that.
how did elon get it?
@serapath @joelving @powersource That is not the correct answer. If that were the answer, nothing would stop people from transitioning, because none of it exists in any way other than through social convention.
So what's the actual way in which capitalists can crack down on alternative currencies?
Hm fair enough. I thinknyou are right.
Not sure why I found the article interesting.
Bitcoin is ~15 years old and other "crypto currencies" are neither that decentralized nor is their price as stable in growth over the long term, which is shown in that graphic signal vs. noise.
Bitcoin, unlike others, also has the fixed 21million limit when it comes to supply and i have seen many arguments that this is exactly the reason for the growth.
Capitalism is money printers. Bitcoin not
@serapath capitalism is a lot more than that
maybe, but imho that is the core ingredient.
the colonialists. the imperialists. the capitalists.
they all use money and have control over the printers, which is how they buy everything from everyone and get filthy rich.
if you take away that ingredient... whatever is left of "capitalism" needs a new name. it wpuld be unrecognizable.... no billionaires anymore.
no huge companies.
no too big to fail.
etc...
@serapath you're forgetting the whole ownership of the means of production thing
@powersource
agree.
bitcoin doesnt solve that - or rather thr "no money printer" (which bitcoin might promise) doesnt solve that.
...but, nodejs/npm growth and its diverse global community to build open source software supplychains on npm was in a way co-opted by crypto because they had the money printer to pay everyone.
any successful worker owned org will be bought out or outcompeted by those woth infinite money printer supply.
with printers, everyone will be employed to avoid take overs