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"Just go zero-waste!" is to environmentalism as "Just give up all the software you currently use and vet, hack, and troubleshoot all of your software yourself, building an encyclopedic knowledge of all the ways you're tracked and blocking each one!" is to infosec

It shouldn't be our responsibility to keep companies from stealing our data, nor should it be our responsibility to keep them from giving us plastic packaging. Especially when the alternatives are so inaccessible to the average person. Stop blaming the victim

You fight this by building alternatives. Open a zero-waste food coop that collects glass pasta sauce jars and gives them away to customers. Host a FLOSS fair at your public library where you install (and teach basic literacy on) open-source OS's on computers and phones. Don't expect people to go it alone and do all the work, we can all help each other

@socalledunitedstates

As an Environmentalist myself I also frequently lament the classism I see in a lot of Environmental stuff.

Like, look pasture-raised, grass-fed, free-range meat can easily go for $10-15 a pound which puts it way out of reach of most families

And going Vegan is not a good option in a food desert where the only produce available is cheap canned vegetables that have had all the nutrients boiled out of them

I try to do the best I can but I can't afford everything organic.

@Tau_Leonis @socalledunitedstates Organic isn't inherently better than anything else. Watch Science Moms, it does a pretty good job at debunking the organic=good marketing idea.

But yes, even organic stuff comes in plastic if you're not buying it straight from the farm. It has to be a change at production level unless you live in the middle of a farmers market.

@kaikatsu @socalledunitedstates

Yeah that was a casualty of the 500 character limit. I used organic produce to mean that ideally I would like produce that was grown carefully and in an environmentally friendly matter and even more ideally was grown and picked by people earning a living wage and not this under-the-table no-insurance off-the-books exploiting Migrant labot shit that some agricultural groups do.

@socalledunitedstates I didn't realize that was a thing even. Special jars of some kind I guess where you live.
Where i live pasta sauce comes off the stove or, later, in these:
canadiantire.ca/en/kitchen/can
Or maybe you mean these
berlinpackaging.com/spaghetti-
I have now found these too, but who would do that? realcanadiansuperstore.ca/Food

@gemlog @socalledunitedstates more like the jar you bought ready made sauce/pickles/jam in, just reuse it.
While I don't totally disagree with you, I do believe that even though we cannot make much difference individually, and despite the blurry line of responsibility... when we make the effort we accomplish more than just that - we also send the message that we the consumers/average folks/whatever are NOT indifferent and that change is important to us. Some entities (corporate, political, etc) pick up on this and even if, in their minds, it's just to gain votes, get customers, or raise the bottom line... it's still progress being made - to some degree.

There's always more that needs to be done, and there's always too little time and resources and those who could help the most do the least... but I believe optimism will create a better outcome than pessimism!

Today I believe that at least... catch me on another day and I may be more 'glass half empty' too, ha. But today I'm feeling just the right amount of manic to believe good things can happen :P

@socalledunitedstates agreed as long as it's not meant to imply that people who know of alternatives should be content with just giving up

just because you can't do it perfectly doesn't mean you shouldn't do it at all

@socalledunitedstates the elitism around computing and tech work is so disgusting, i can’t believe that ive been at it my entire life and people still talk to me like an absolute moron. open source communities are some of the worst, and not only is it ignored, in many cases this nastiness is encouraged (see the Arch Linux community, for a good example)

What/where are some of these examples you peak of in the Arch community? I don't mean that facetiously at all; I sincerely would would like to know about this! I like Arch Linux as a distro. It's not a purist distro, in that it offers some non-free packages - but it does a better job than many desktop distros in that regard (at least in making it possible to avoid many non-free packages). Much better than Ubuntu, for example, and not to mention all the other ways Ubuntu has let the community down. That said, I've been itching to give Parabola a go (which is an Arch derivative with zero non-free components). I try to use as little non-free as I can already, without driving the rest of my family, and the people I've helped convert, back to M$ products, haha. Anyways... my train of thought derailed a bit there, but yeah, I'd really just like to see some of this Arch 'nastiness'! I'd want to know if my desktop distro of choice is associated with things I find to be ideologically incompatible! Thanks for bringing this to my attention @nutsling !

@self just go browse their forums or jump into their IRC and casually mention that you use an AUR frontend and see what reaction you get. I love Arch but their community largely thrives on talking down to or disparaging new users for taking shortcuts, making simple mistakes or having reached incorrect conclusions rather than, say, trying to understand how that person got there in the first place and working to fix that.

Wow, that has not been my experience with Arch at all. Granted, it has been a while since I’ve gone on IRC for help. I mostly just use the wiki, which is pretty great in general. I’ve tried to contribute a little where it did seem lacking (very small contributions) and I did experience some pickiness but I think that was more about just keeping high standards with regards to consistent conventions and style - not necessarily egos or douchebaggery. Also, I have seen the debates over AUR frontends (in forums, not IRC), but the arguments I’ve seen do have merits. For example, one argument is that using such utilities promotes laziness with with regard to reviewing configs, making it extremely easy for milicious code or compromised sources to slip by unnoticed when the process is automated. I do use ‘yaourt’ personally, so I’m not in that anti-front end camp, but I do see the validity of the cautioning against them. Personally, I have yet to encounter a malicious AUR package, but I get it, the potential for trouble is there... and admittedly I have occasionally been too rushed/lazy to throughly inspect package configs or even hastily added a signature to get something installed ASAP. I guess I justify this because I use Arch on desktops/laptops - not my more critical servers. I must admit though, given how few problems Arch gives me and how much I hate major version disto upgrades, I’d love to run a rolling-release disto like Arch on a server! Ha. Anyways, I’m just rambling now... I’m just really sorry you’ve had such bad experience with Arch. I suspect it might be more a problem with large IRC channels, I have seen such behavior in many such channels and maybe it’s that Arch has become a busier channel since my last visit. I don’t doubt what you say, just providing my own perspective on things. Good chatting :)

@socalledunitedstates moreover the impact we can have as individuals are far less efficient that the one these companies could have

@socalledunitedstates

Yes, thank you.

I replied because talk of environmentalism without mention of animal agriculture or the pathway to victory, namely Veganism, is talk without substance.

I was adding vital information to the conversation with my reply.

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