@puffinus_puffinus

My short answer is: yes

My long answer is: yes, and then y'all should have an open vote on which poc to hire to help set up a new governance model, and then use that to figure out new people in new roles and then go from there

@puffinus_puffinus

I think a solarpunk instance is a good thing to have, and I think SBC could be that instance, but it would require pretty much shutting it all down and restarting from day zero.

This presents logistical problems like you can't leave the old instnace up at that domain to let people backup their content if you're trying to set up a new instance, but I think it's what has to happen - if not just a complete closure.

@puffinus_puffinus The only other alternative I see is that y'all are the white ecosoc instance and I don't see that as an important distinction from ecofascism, y'know? Like even if you all really WANTED to have a holistic perspective you just wouldn't because you'd be so white.

@puffinus_puffinus @emsenn feels like a cop out though don't you think? rather than even attempt to fix things just say fuck it and pull the plug. nobody learns from that and nothings new is attempted

@CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus "shut down" is a too-terse rendition of my actual opinion, which is that y'all should have a series of up to three conventions, and shutting down is a possible outcome of any one of them.

@CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

This post has a bit more on the plan, but I'd suggest reading the whole thread to get a feeling for my, uh, feelings.

myasstodon.xyz/@emsenn/1036524

I haven't had as much time today to write a good piece really getting my feelings across as I wanted but I don't think "torch it today" is the right answer.

(That said, I think it's important to recognize that by the instance's definition, they have attempted to fix it several times and it hasn't worked.)

@emsenn @puffinus_puffinus yeah that all seems reasonable honestly. that callout stuff is why I never joined their co-op or got super into editing their wiki, even though I really wanted to get involved in what seemed like cool projects for green socialism. I think Moss hit the fucking nail on the head with 'solar punk is a very white aesthetic', but green alternative power structures don't need to be white and I base huge HUGE parts of an actual green socialist manifesto I am writing on Australian aboriginal and Meso American sustainable agriculture.

I think it's ironic a group of almost entirely self professed Anarchists have gotten themselves tied up in bureaucracy. it shouldn't require a huge shakeup to just not have institutional racism in your organisation, it should take 20 minutes to have the problem explained to you and then a while to internalise that, reflect, and change keeping what was said in mind

@CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

Eh, even keeping in mind to be considerate, one without experience in a given kind of issue might not be able to make a decision, let alone the right one: I think that's what we see often with the instance's moderation history.

I really do think it'll take involvement from marginalized folk (and not just me) in like, hands-on decisionmaking at the incident-level.

@CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

Oh! An analogy: I can teach someone the AEIOUs of union organizing in about five minutes, but I would not expect that person to then go unionize their workplace from that talk: I'd want to stand beside them and be available for consultation for a loooong while - probably even after they're helping OTHERS learn to unionize, y'know?

@emsenn @puffinus_puffinus I've hung out with Puff IRL and he's more than cool, seems to care and genuinely try. but, as he himself will admit, he's a cis het white guy from rural wales which is whiter than the bread isle, and that gives you a narrow perspective on a lot of shit. this is why you should always have a set quota of representation, and representation that is actively listened to, in any decision making

@CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

*nod* I've never gotten a vibe from him that he's anything but aware of his own perspective.

It's a matter of pragmatically getting those other perspectives, which is like, tricky: the only federated part of the fediverse is post broadcasting.

(I think we're getting at two issues here: how can an instance maintain balanced moderation even if the userbase is unbalanced, and what to do about SBC, specifically.)

@emsenn @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus Sorry if I'm being a bit dense and missing the point, but if marginalized folk, as you put it, aren't trying to be admins/involved, how do you fix that?

Was there an instance where someone tried and was shut down?

@bananaguardian @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

1) love the username

2) I'm not sure; it's a bit of a rock-and-hard-place, Catch-22, you're right.

Part of it is elevating marginalized voices within the community even if they aren't moderators, another part I think could be explicitly commissioning external moderators.

You're correct that it's a difficult problem, but it's one that /needs/ to be resolved. Otherwise, y'all's whiteness actively drives out marginalized users.

@emsenn @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

If the community as a whole is doing nothing to prevent including others, I don't understand what there is to be done.

I've read plenty of times where @puffinus_puffinus has mentioned they are more than willing to step down if others wants to take over, but no one ever steps up.

I agree that it's a Catch-22, but, no one ever gives suggestions. They just seem to call bullshit and leave.

@bananaguardian @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

Don't treat folk calling bullshit and walking away as a natural phenomenon: it's because of the amount of work required, and the risks entailed, in stepping up. It often just isn't seen as worth it.

And, people do give suggestions, it's that they the suggestions are hard to do and require actions that would disrupt the white majority, and that stability is prioritized.

@bananaguardian @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

Like, I weighed in on a recent admin decision y'all were having, publicly.

Fascists elsewhere on the Internet called me illiterate, genocidal, and called for my death. That's not your instance's fault, but it's a risk of being a marginalized person on the internet, and if you're going around trying to demarginalize yourself, you're just opening yourself up to more

That's a big factor in why more marginalized folk aren't stepping up.

@emsenn @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus
I don't think it's a natural phenomenon or anything, but if others aren't willing to put in the work, which is the whole point of a cooperative system, what is there to be done?

I have a hard time believing that @puff, or any other mods here, wouldn't implement something that was seen as beneficial to everyone.

@bananaguardian @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

What is to be done is to shut down as a failed experiment, and to be okay with that.

But I don't think we're there, yet: I think closing registrations, announcing a convention to vote on rebuild or shut down, and then doing that and then if it passes rebuild, a second convention to hire poc consultants to build a new co-op, and then a third convention to vote on their recommendations

@emsenn @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus
So what I'm asking is: Rebuild how? Calling for something to be killed is one thing, and easy, but it's not really telling anyone how to do it better.

Other than everyone just having their own instance, what is a possible solution here?

@emsenn @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus
If people aren't willing to do it now, how would re-doing everything somehow make them want to do it then?

@bananaguardian @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

I don't think you appreciate how leading these questions are.

"If people aren't willing to reject the crown now, what would writing a declaration of independence do?"

Nothing, or everything. it depends on what people do with the opportunity it provides.

@emsenn @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus
I'm just historically bad at debating and knowing what to ask. Just ask my wife, haha.

I see what you're saying, really, and I'm all for what the majority of users would would want to do in this situation.

Again, though, I just don't see much changing in the end. Most of the work will fall on one or two people to do the bulk of the work while everyone else critiques and doesn't offer much in terms of actual, practicable, advice or help.

@bananaguardian @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

Haha, that was a sweet enough response I'll trust that it's "bad" rhetoric, not malicious rhetoric. <3

Nothing might change in the end, at which point I'd be at the unfortunate conclusion that the instance isn't a good community and needs to dissolve.

But I mean, I'm willing to involve myself with the instance (and wider co-op) if there's a reconstruction from day zero, and others probably would over time

@emsenn @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus
I'm glad because I don't think I have a malicious bone in my body and it would upset me that someone thought I was being so.

Plenty of stupid bones, though. Like, super dense and stupid.

Like I said, I'm down for anything!

Thanks for helping me understand a bit more. :)

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@bananaguardian @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus

There doesn't need to be a plan for rebuilding before you vote on whether to rebuild or shut down.

Your line of questioning presents "continue existing as you are" as a possible outcome, and I reject that: if Sunbeam doesn't begin to rebuild itself or shutdown, I'll be defederating from y'all as ecofascists, because you will have demonstrated a prioritization of institution over people.

@emsenn @bananaguardian @CornishRepublicanArmy @puffinus_puffinus how does this convention work?

Genuinely curious as to what you envisage that as being.

@dgold I dunno what online voting stuff is available these days but legit probably just a webform for members to vote on "rebuild or shut down" and to input their email so whether they're a member can be verified.

The vote on hiring consultants can be maybe done over email, tournament runoff style? and the actual organizational convention I imagine a mix of email and other stuff.

@dgold (There's probably better tools than email but that's just still what the coop I'm most involved with does - but we're also a closed and small group that's been the same folk for a decade now.

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Sunbeam City 🌻

Sunbeam City is a Libertarian Socialist solarpunk instance. It is ran democratically by a cooperative of like-minded individuals.