I'm concerned about a few things with modern development, and this is why my languages of choice right now are lua, python, and C; with Forth and Lisp in the "would like to use more ideas from" area:

Vendor lock-in, and Vendor "OURS. NOT YOURS. YOU MAY NOT USE ANY LONGER. ALSO: NO LONGER SUPPORTED" things. Java, Go, and Rust are all encumbered by being non-free (no, really, they aren't. They're OWNED by a vendor. You can use the language, but it's not OPEN. It's "free and open" the Ajit Pai way: "lie about it.")

Then Javascript is being absorbed by Microsoft; so it's out of the question also... better said here: clarity.kleydints.com/a-post-m )

Ability to be used in smaller environments: Yes, I know, 32GB is the minimum acceptable thing today. That's insane and "what if someone can't afford that?" The poor exist. They should have the same abilities people with some money do. And we ALL should have the same amount of access/abilities as those who make a billion dollars by sitting on their ass and doing nothing while the financial systems give them bonuses for being at the top of the mountain.

But I like my older machines, and there's nothing inherently WRONG with them. The whole "buy a new thing because the old things are useless!" attitude feeds into the whole "crush right to repair" thing, at least I see similarities. Sure, new is neat, but when new becomes old, tossing it makes... environmental waste...

And things like Javascript cross-platform "applications" (which are just Chrome instances in a "sandbox" - but is it a good sandbox? I somehow doubt it, given the vendors... ) and on top of that, the memory footprint... and yes, I've done things like this as well in python, where I'm using the memory that I have to solve an issue, rather than using something less memory intensive... but then I'm doing that to solve an immediate problem, and not releasing that code for others. I.e. I'm "coding for the device I have" not "coding for a wide variety of different devices."

I'm seeing far too many things being developed in the vendor locked languages, and there aren't alternatives.

I'm concerned that at some point we'll lose those tools, or we'll be in a situation where we'll have to deal with NOT having those tools until they're rewritten in another language.

I'd very much like a truely "owned by the people" language that doesn't have the problems of C pointers, which would be able to be used on processors that aren't from this age. i.e. if it works on 6502,z80, and 68000: I'd be happ‪ier. And yes, that means no mmu things. "MMU if you have it, this extension if you do not" would be ok. After all, if you don't HAVE an MMU, you probably aren't looking at needing to manage memory automatically...

Anyway just thoughts, based on seeing yet another project written in JS, Go, or Rust, with no "backwards compatible" vision. I'm worried those will suddenly be removed from us by a hostile vendor.

Because all vendors are hostile.

@cnx I have, and it looked very interesting. However, I'm still concerned about the underlying direction of where Javascript will end up...

Zig MIGHT be able to be turned to compile into something else, like JVM or similar. Of course, it may already have, the last time I looked was a year ago - due to my work project taking all my time and energy.

Also, Zig is likely not going to gain traction while Microsoft has people looking at Typescript, as well as making "the best editor" (which I completely disagree with, but... to each their own.)

@mjd @cnx Forgive my ignorance; I was under the impression that Zig compiled to native code. I just visited the official Zig website and found no mention of JavaScript.

Can you explain the current relationship between Zig and JavaScript? Thanks.


@vertigo @mjd @cnx Zig compiles to a binary, and has nothing to do with JavaScript or the JVM. I'm not sure what @mjd is talking about.

Wondering what you think about Zig now that you know that.


@makeworld @vertigo @cnx

Somehow it had been presented to us at work as "compiles to javascript" - and at that time, I'd looked at it, but with the javascript ecosystem being ...

Let's say that leftpad, npm's "reinvent the wheel and never talk to anyone else they already screwed everything up" and similar attitudes from some developers I've worked with/met, and "just buy a new computer to run this javascript thing" attitudes, I've not been happy with the javascript ecosystem.

(Add the "just use this library" feature creep, and the "webpages cannot run without tracking, that's stupid, turn tracking on!" attitudes of some people - not neccesarily deveopers - and my belief that Javascript is a tool designed for the web and should remain in that area, not bolted onto areas which it wasn't designed...)

That, then, influenced my thoughts about Zig. (i.e. "ugh. javascript again ): ")

I will look more at zig over the coming months.

I am glad you, and others, brought it up.

@mjd @vertigo @cnx maybe that person was talking about Nim, which compiles to C and Javascript? Afaik Zim has nothing to do with JS. Anyway, good luck with your search

@makeworld @vertigo @cnx YES. That is EXACTLY what it was.

Thank you for the clarification, and also, thanks to everyone correcting my mistake.

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