I loved Batman growing up.. And to some extent, I still do. However, over time I've slowly began siding with his villains.

It's hard not to see Batman as a biiiiit fashy when reading these comics, especially the post-Moore/Miller stuff.

The Dark Knight Rises was literally a movie about billionaires punching Occupy Wall Street. Bane opens the prisons, reveals the lies pushed by Gotham's elite and says "WE GIVE GOTHAM BACK TO YOU... the people" and we're NOT supposed to side with him?

Poison Ivy is an Ecologist who just wants to protect the biosphere from her corporate overlords.

Joker is an Egoist trying to show the world that its entire system is a spook.

Mr. Freeze just wants his fucking wife back...

But the good guy is the wealth hoarder who attacks poor people in the street, because their situation has pushed them into "crime"

@GreenandBlack I've watched the Gotham serie and tbh The Pinguin is pretty cool compared to other character

@marsxyz I stopped watching during season 1, did it get better?

@GreenandBlack The fact that the core superhero schtick, exceptional individuals protecting the status quo from undesireables, is so deeply conservative is something I see surprisingly little conversation about.

Batman is a standout for those reasons, but he's also one of the most inconsistently written characters out there. When he's written well, he does things like fund Freeze's research and attempts to rehabilitate Clayface.

When the likes of Frank Miller write him, ehh, not so much.

@Caelyn This is why I'm so attracted to superheroes that don't uphold the status quo, why Captain America: The Winter Soldier is one of my favourite comic book movies.

Green Arrow murders billionaires if he thinks they are a detriment to his local community, that's anarchic af.

And yeah, Batman from the Animated Series >>>> Batman from The Dark Knight trilogy

@GreenandBlack The latest run of Detective Comics was wonderful to me, as a die-hard "BTAS Batman is best Batman" person. I've not been keeping up because poverty and apparently it's gone south recently, which is a shame, because it was soooo good. The whole premise of the arc is Batman saying "I need help and I'm shit at being a leader, so I'm gonna get Batwoman to run a team for me."

@GreenandBlack You know how DC and Marvel "reboot" their universes every now and then? This has the makings of a very interesting reboot...

@greenandblack I mean, while Bats (and superheroes in general) are _definitely_ on the fashy side of things, I'd claim Bane is generally portrayed as a lying liar who lies, so perhaps don't take him at face value?

@pettter Not necessarily, Green Arrow is a Libertarian Socialist, John Stewart's first mission as Green Lantern was to protect a corrupt politician and he let the cunt die.

You can be a vigilante, without going far-right.

While my comment on Bane was a bit facetious, I can't recall any time he flat out lies..

@greenandblack ...he lies constantly? About there being hope, about where the nuke is, about giving Gotham back to the people (he arms organised crime instead of tossing the guns in the river and puts frikking scarecrow in the seat of 'justice') etc. etc.

I maintain that _the concept of superheroes_ is a fashy kind of idea. Grab what is Right using your Might, and as long as your cause is Righteous enough, folks will either see you as the Hero you are, or be misguided and possibly criminal or corrupt. Not all, not everywhere, not every story, but the basic premise is much more often on the Strong Man protecting the Weak from the Impure than on organising the weak to _become_ strong together, for example.

@pettter That's fair. In my defense, I haven't seen the movie in a while.

While I get where you're coming from, it's worth remembering that superheroes were invented by Jewish creatives in direct response to the rise of fascism. So calling the concept of superheroes inherently fashy, when Superman and Captain America were literally created in order to bash fash, worries me...

Kyle Kallgren made a pretty good video essay about this a while back:

@greenandblack Fash ideas are _incredibly_ seductive, though. There's no contradiction in using and appealing to them while intending an anti-fascist message, and even having an anti-fascist surface reading.

@GreenandBlack I'd love to see a reboot of Batman actually portrayed as a villain. He's a damaged trust fund kid.

Between his company's multibillionaire status and his lack of conception to what it means to be impoverished, there's so much there for political and economic corruption let alone the corruption of systemic indifference/structural violence he engages in just by putting the mask and cape on. Even if his taxes are 100% clean, the consequences of that wealth are enormous.

@joamo @GreenandBlack There was a great SMBC about how he could have done so much more to reduce crime by using the billions he spent on a secret supersuit, tank, and lair on funding charities instead.

It would take one black ops to take out the Joker. Batman was perfect for the job and he blew it.

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Sunbeam City 🌻

Sunbeam City is a anticapitalist, antifascist solarpunk instance that is run collectively.